WANTED WOMEN: Faith, Lies & The War on Terror: The Lives of Ayaan Hirsi Ali & Aafia Siddiqui, by Deborah Scroggins – Harper/HarperCollinsPublishers New York, NY Copyright © 2012 by Deborah Scroggins.

 A review by Bill Dahl

A Legitimate Pulitzer Prize Candidate:

When I received my copy for review – the title and cover made me skeptical…but…I started reading…then – I couldn’t out it down.

This book is unique and profoundly distinctive in so many ways. The following are noteworthy:

a) Deborah Scroggins spent 6 years on this project.

b) Initially, I viewed the structure of the book as a gamble – alternating chapters for Ayaan Hirsi Ali & Aafia Siddiqui – I came to absolutely adore it.

c) The author had never interviewed either woman directly during the research and writing of the book. Yet, the tertiary sources Scroggins plied to obtain the pertinent material are both comprehensive and intimate – providing the reader with the ability to become acutely familiar with each subject.

d) You can’t write a book like this without placing your personal safety and welfare in jeopardy (no matter what the author says).

This work has it all: religion, women’s rights, equality, terrorists, murder, birth, faith development, human development, intrigue, political intrigue, Somalia, the war on terror, the disconnect between the west and the rest, family relations, refugees, terrorism, suicide bombings, contradiction, lies, deception, death, Africa, immigration, racism, Guantanamo, secret CIA prisons, abductions, prejudice, divorce, intolerance, relationships, misunderstanding, certainty, fundamentalism, Judaism, Pakistan, charisma, injustice, finance, bodyguards, assassinations, court proceedings, mental health issues, separation, The U.S., extremism, the media, anarchy, survival, irrationality, mystery, children, misperception, military engagement, war, genocide, foreign policy, Iran, Iraq, the oppressed, poverty, affluence, the pursuit of personal achievement, strategic international relations, CIA, FBI, ISI, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Daniel Pearl – and running for your life…whatever that may mean.

In the absence of such an incredibly gifted investigative journalist/author (Deborah Scroggins) – this book might have easily become a mediocre mess. I garnered a deep appreciation for both the writing and storytelling skill of Scroggins, as well as the unimaginable perseverance she aptly displays – crafting a page-turning, insightful examination of the intersection where the issues I enumerate above collide…in the lives of real people…today. She lets the story speak for itself (if there really is such a thing). The voice Scroggins equips the two central characters with is a feast for the reader.  The manner in which she shares this story is so terribly poignant and powerful yet, unequivocally uniquely creative – causes the reader to become curious, engaged, concerned, educated, perplexed, angry — to ponder deeply — and arrive at a place where one understands just how much difficult work we have yet to accomplish — in directly addressing the innumerable challenges, contradictions and life shaping/threatening conditions WANTED WOMEN: Faith, Lies & The War on Terror: The Lives of Ayaan Hirsi Ali & Aafia Siddiqui so cogently illuminates.

Today, as a species, in our current historical epoch, homo-sapiens (that’d be us) – particularly those who are sufficiently fortunate to be free from worry about survival on a daily basis – also seem to have acquired another peculiar tendency this book illuminated for me. It’s epistemological self-righteousness – We humans have an infernal capacity to come to believe what we think we know is both adequate and sufficient. As Princeton research psychologist and Nobel Prize winner Dan Kahneman has said in his most recent book, Thinking, Fast and Slow – we develop the tendency to think What You See Is All There Is. Kahneman writes: “At work here is that powerful WYSIATI rule: You cannot help dealing with the limited information you have as if it were all there is to know. You build the best possible story from the information available to you, and if it is a good story, you believe it.”[i] Kahneman refers to this as “pretended knowledge” – a phenomenon very apparent in the lives of both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Aafia Siddiqui…and our world.

As any superlative literary work of non-fiction requires Deborah Scroggins’ WANTED WOMEN: Faith, Lies & The War on Terror: The Lives of Ayaan Hirsi Ali & Aafia Siddiqui leaves the reader with the veil epistemological modesty firmly affixed to ones’ heart and soul. Yet, the work clearly defines the challenges ahead, prompting the essential dialog required to re-think our current beliefs, policies, practices and past approaches to the ongoing, unresolved issues so vividly and persuasively illuminated by this book. There’s vastly more import to this work than your what you see is all there is mechanism might suggest.

Like I said…a legitimate Pulitzer Prize candidate. Believe it!

An incredible treatise on primarily the life’s work of Dan Kahneman and Amos Tversky. Kahneman is the Eugene Higgins Professor of Psychology Emeritus at Princeton and Prof. of Psychology and Public Affairs Emeritus at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public Affairs at Princeton. Although “primarily” is a useful term, Kahnenan utilizes the leading research in the field throughout the book.

How do human beings make decisions? What does the current research in psychology suggest? What do we think we know about the ways the human mind behaves? These are the three primary questions addressed in the book.

Kahneman introduces a myriad of concepts. The two main main one’s are System 1 and 2, and WYSIATI. System 1 is our intuitive, automatic system. System 2 is our effortful system (self control) engineered to overcome the impulses of System 1. We are all familiar with WYSIWIG. Kahneman introduces the concept of WYSIATI – What You See Is All There Is. Kaheman introduces a pile of research that supports the notion that the human mind (System 1) relies upon WYSIATI to reinforce his contention that “we can be blind to the obvious, and we are also blind to our blindness.” (p.24). WYSIATI provides us with the equipment that produces the capacity to “exaggerate the consistency and coherence of what we see.” (p.114). WYSIATI provides the inertia for the human mind’s willingness to “misclassify an event as systematic – - rejecting the belief that much of what we see in life is random.” (p. 117).

Throughout the book, the following thesis is an observation that is a constant:

“when people believe a conclusion is true, they are also very likely to believe arguments that appear to support it, even when these arguments are unsound. If System 1 is involved, the conclusion comes first and the arguments follow.” (p.45).

System 1 is associative – looking for memories and experiences that provide a context for the mind to reply to questions, judgments and choices that we humans encounter in daily life. It is also “lazy”. System 1 enjoys “cognitive ease,” constantly updating our world view in terms of what is “normal.”System 2 requires effort to engage it. The human mind  is clearly prone to developing biases in making decisions. Frankly, the examples that Kahneman uses throughout the book will both amaze and amuse you.

This is NOT light reading. Frankly, this is distinctly a System 2 book – requiring “effortful” reading. Yet, it is well worth the effort. At times, a background in social research was very helpful to me, as I considered the plight of other readers who may not possess that experience. Yet, perhaps that is an over-simplification of my part, as Kahneman writes:

“The world in our heads is not a precise replica of reality; our expectations about the frequency of events are distorted by the prevalence and emotional intensity of the messages to which we are exposed.” (p. 138).

Kaheman states that “the test of learning psychology is whether your understanding of of situations you encounter has changed, not whether you have learned a new fact…you are more likely to learn something by finding surprises in your own behavior than by learning surprising facts about people in general.” (p.174.). The way in which this book is written places one experientially within the context of the preceding statement…the reader is required to “experience” the book…it’s personal and participatory.The chapters on Bad Events and The Forfold Pattern were my favorites…and highlight a myriad of questions in the economic arena that beg for further inquiry. I intend to write a separate article about my observations spawned by these two chapters.

The chapters on the illusion of validity, intuition, optimism and expert intuition are fascinating… rearranging what you thought you knew.

This book takes one beyond the frontier of epistemology – or how we know what we think we know. It is a groundbreaking treatise into the current results of research that is completely counter-intuitive. What one comes to know after reading this book is just how much we have to unlearn from our knowing and embrace the challenges to learn anew, from this outstanding contribution.

I highly recommend Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman…just take your time with it…experience it…as Kahneman has gone to great lengths to invite your participation…learning is effortful. Well worth the effort.

A magnificent narrative about stories that are not told anymore. The masterful craftsmanship that produced this work is awe inspiring…not too much detail but sufficient to make this book one that will make you cry, shout, audibly say incredulously; “Oh my Gosh!”  at least 4 times. This book is suitable for all audiences and would be accessible intellectually by middle and high school students – particularly those studying U.S. history. I couldn’t put it down when I started…read the whole thing in bed once I began.

 Magnificent – incredible – REQUIRED READING.

Phenomenal. period.

Allow me to be brief….”BRA – freeking – VO.” If I had a book to recommend with the 2012 U.S. presidential election coming up – this would be it. Frankly, it should be required reading before people vote. It’s just that darn good.

I don’t buy books for friends – it’s rare – I bought this one for a good friend in December 2011.

Read it – buy one for a friend – talk about it with others – then vote. One of the best books I have read in the past 2 years.

I’m done…the U.S.A. is not.

This 463 page treatise is a wonderful accomplishment and is likely to become required reading for those interested in the history and development of economic thought. As Nasar, writes: “Most journeys start in the imagination.” Friedman, Hayek, Keynes, Sen, The Webbs,  Schumpeter, Marshall, Robinson – they’re all here – and many others – come alive in this magnificent weave of history, biography and economics. The manner in which it is written makes the entire subject area vastly more approachable – accessible – and shall inspire others to dedicate themselves to the the same sort of challenge that the author embraced here..

I was particularly impressed with how Nasar weaved her challenge (stated above) as cleverly, and with an unbelievable depth and breadth – yet maintained an appetite for the reader to come back for more. This is a work of art from the heart – Sylvia Nasar’s.

I truly enjoyed the journey. You will too. However, the subtitle will likely turn many off from the purchase decision…The Story of Economic Genius – probably is not one that magnetically attracts too many folks today.

]]> http://www.billdahl.net/articles/grand-pursuit-the-story-of-economic-genius-by-sylvia-nasr/feed/ 0 http://www.billdahl.net/featured/unladylike-resisting-the-injustice-of-inequality-in-the-church-by-pam-hogeweide/ http://www.billdahl.net/featured/unladylike-resisting-the-injustice-of-inequality-in-the-church-by-pam-hogeweide/#comments Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:22:45 +0000 bill http://www.billdahl.net/?p=3326 Unladylike –

Resisting the Injustice of Inequality in the Church

By Pam Hogeweide

Beyond Beliefism – From “Just Us” to Justice – A Book Review by Bill Dahl

Once Upon A Time…

Once upon a time – long, long ago – in a universe far, far away – there existed the planet of KOG. The planet was inhabited by billions of people – including those who lived in the Kingdom of Christendom. The kingdom was ruled by the emperor “Justus.” The citizens were ruled by a body of laws – including the few – and excluding the many – from full participation in the Kingdom. The “laws of Justus” were deemed sacred, inviolable and not subject to interpretation, by countless villages throughout the kingdom. Each village was referred to as “church” – a place where like-minded villagers would come together for fellowship, study of the law, and worship of God. More specifically, numerous laws excluded women from exercising their God-given gifts within the Church – including leadership and teaching. Truth be told, the “laws of Justus”   denied women fundamental equality with men in the Church. However, this particular set of rules regarding the role of women in daily life – and the Church – were often cloaked in a veil of vagueness, facilitating the transmission of the ongoing submission of women to the “laws of Justus” – from one generation to the next – to preserve unity within the Church…and the normative standard of ladylike identities, roles and behavior by women.

Throughout the years, many women left their local Church when they realized (among other things) their God granted giftedness and calling would not be honored by their male counterparts who led, taught and administered the Church. Many women remained content at Church. Others resigned and walked away. Others, continued to show up without being present.[1] Many more remained in the Church, submitted to the laws. Although those who inhabited the broader culture, outside the subculture of Justus, had canonized rules to insure the equality of women throughout the land – the Church remained a curious exception to these rules. How can this be? Some women (and men) began to whisper to one another. The laws of Justus demanded beliefism – an unswerving dedication to a body of beliefs – no matter what – passed from one generation to the next within the Church. It is the adoption of a way of thinking and set of beliefs about self, others, life and God that are right – and provide the basis for suspicion of others who believe differently ( see Henderson).

 Unladylike?

[1] Henderson, Jim The Resignation of Eve – What If Adam’s Rib Is No Longer Willing To Be The Church’s Backbone, BARNA – An Imprint of TYNDALE House Publishers, Inc. Copyright © 2012 by Jim Henderson, p. 7.

Click here for the You Tube Video:

My review of the David’s book is here and my interview with David is here:

See Sojourners article entitled “Millennials to the Church: Wake Up or We’re Outta Here” — as well here:

What if Adam’s Rib Is No Longer Willing To Be The Church’s Backbone?

Release Date: February 2012 – Tyndale House Publishers

photography/images above and below by Bill Dahl

A new Narrative?

In Her most recent book, Sara Miles has said: “Sharing our real stories, unvarnished and unfinished, not only provide helpful tips or sympathetic laughs: it’s the thing that allows us to become whole.” There are unvarnished, unfinished stories coming from certain sectors of Christendom in the U.S. — Jim Henderson’s The Resignation of Eve – What if Adam’s Rib is No Longer Willing to be the Backbone of the Church? — is filled with them. More about Henderson’s book in a moment. When one listen’s closely to the stories – a common narrative continues to emerge, based upon social research and socio-cultural observations. Allow me to explain. Listen to the narrative that seems to coalesce from the following:

Theologian Eugene Peterson has written: “We’ve been at this for two thousand years now, and people are not clamoring to join us.” [i] Alan Hirsch says, “I simply do not believe that we can continue to try to think our way into a new way of acting, but rather, we need to act our way into a new way of thinking.” [ii] Gabe Lyons and David Kinnaman have said in their book unChristian: “We are at a turning point for Christianity in America. If we do not wake up to these realities and respond in appropriate, godly ways, we risk being increasingly marginalized and losing further credibility with millions of people.” [iii] George Barna has said that we have 340,000 Christian churches in America. The median age of women who attend, give money to, and volunteer in churches is between 56 and 59 years old. Read that sentence again…consider the implications. Barna goes on to say: “If you consider yourself a Christian, then you are called to follow His example and create the future.” [iv] The research underpinning David Kinnaman’s most recent book, You Lost Me – Why Young Christians Are Leaving Church and Redefining Faith emphatically points out that young Christians are leaving the Church in unprecedented numbers. Marcia Pally of NYU declares the following in her new book, The New Evangelicals: “The Divine may be omniscient and infallible, but religion as practiced in this world is a human institution….Religion, as it is practiced, is both adaptable and corruptible, as are all (human) social, political and economic systems.”……[v] Hmmmm…hear a narrative? A theme?

 Cuz God Said So…?

Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher once said: “In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman.” [vi] Blogger/Author/Writer/Creative Thinker…and activist  -  Pam Hogeweide of Portland Oregon writes:

“Most of my readership are disenchanted Christians who are sorting out what’s really real to them in their faith and what’s dogmatic conditioning from religious rhetoric and traditionalism. The perspective of women in the church by their men, and particularly the perspective of women of themselves is still in the grip of an archaic, hierarchical mindset that keeps women quietly busy serving in the kitchen or the nursery. But not the pulpit or the lecterns where only men can teach the faithful. It is unfathomable to the people I know here in Portland who are not Christ followers when they learn of the gender inequity that is alive and well in the halls of Christendom. “Really?” they ask,   “In this day and age?” [vii]

 Even in Islam, the role of the full participation of Muslim women is a lightening rod, as Irshad Manji points out in her book, The Trouble with Islam – A Muslim Calls For Reform in Her Faith:

“Girl’s can’t lead prayer.”

“What do you mean?”

“Girls aren’t permitted.”

“Why not?”

“Allah says so.”

“What’s His reason?”

“Read the Koran.”

Really? In this day and age?

Back Pain?

 Enter Jim Henderson and his new book The Resignation of Eve – What if Adam’s Rib is No Longer Willing to be the Backbone of the Church? This book is filled with riveting interviews with Christian women, whom (as a whole) George Barna refers to as the backbone of the church. (p. xvi). According to Barna, between 1991 and 2011:

1. Adult women attending church during any week has declined by 20%.
2. Women attending Sunday School has plummeted by 29%.
3. The percentage of remain who are characterized as “unchurched” has risen by 94% during this period.
4. More than a third of all women are now unconnected from the church.
5. Most weekly church attenders are women (53%) – and they bring their families.
6. Most church volunteers are women (57%).
7. Women are the majority in terms of attendance of adult Sunday school programs (59%).
8. 60% of those who attend small groups or Bible study are women.
9. Due to the demographic data compiled (Barna 2000 study) about the median age (56-59) of women contributing (in every sense) to the Church – women’s active participation in the future of the Church has been characterized as a “dying breed.” (p.252).

Henderson goes onto characterize what he identifies as The Three Faces of Resignation – resigned to, resigned from, re-signed. For Henderson, he makes a well-informed observation: “leaving doesn’t mean walking away; more often it means showing up without being present.” (p.7).

 The interviews and summaries of the same by the author are superbly crafted. They represent women who live or have lived at least one of the “Three Faces of Resignation” denoted above. (truth be told, one may exist in one of Henderson’s stages in degrees, if you will. In one’s lifetime, one may live through multiple stages). These interviews will make you think, shift in your seat, squirm, spontaneously blurt out “What” at least twice during your reading – and require you to contemplate the clear opportunity/necessity for change. Finally, the women whose interviews are contained in the book are precious children of God, just like you and I, whose lives are being shaped by the tenets of their respective faith persuasion. Some are “fine with it,” – others – not so much. Henderson does a splendid job of integrating interviews that flow with his evolving thesis throughout the book.

If the Apostle Paul happened to be Mary in The Bible, I sincerely doubt that The Resignation of Eve would have been written. We would likely be faced with another book — perhaps a few books with titles like: “The Anomie of Adam,” “Adam’s Angst,” “The Flight of Fred,” or “The Plight of Peter.”

The Heart of The Matter

Lyons and Kinnaman say “We are at a turning point for Christianity in America. If we do not wake up to these realities….” Kinnaman’s most recent book clearly raises the warning that young Christians are leaving the Church in unprecedented numbers. Barna’s research points out the fundamental, strategic importance of women as the backbone of the church. The demographic data alert us to the dying breed characterization. Unfathomable, as Hogeweide recounts?

 Henderson ends the book with three questions that truly must cause one to pause:

 What if our perception of God’s heart is far too narrow? What if His heart is wider and higher than we’ve been taught to imagine? What if God’s ways really aren’t our ways.” (p.276).

After reading this book, I couldn’t help but respond aloud to the author’s three questions, “Yes! Yes! Yes!”

The challenge that The Resignation of Eve presents is, to use the words of Eugene Peterson, “akin to skillfully setting a compound fracture “sets” this belief in God into our behavior before God so that the bones — belief and behavior – knit together and heal.” [viii]

 After all, “the energy of reconciliation is the dynamo at the heart of the universe.” [ix]

 Buy this book. Discuss it with friends. Use it as a staple or supplement in your small group. Ask your pastor to recommend it to your church family. This book is timely, terribly important and was not created to sit on a shelf after a thorough reading – you can’t simply devour this book, leave it and walk away. Showing up without being present just ain’t gonna cut it anymore. This book should have a warning label: “NOTICE: The consumption of this book will cause the reader to act upon the heartfelt reflex to reflect upon reconciliation. Side Effects: May cause enlargement of your heart, stir your redemptive imagination, identify a fracture between your beliefs and behavior, and promote the onset of healing an enduring malady that continues to infect the hearts and minds of His Church.”

 Reconcile your heart to that.

NOTES

Watch David and some young people talk about the book here on YouTube:

For any artist who produces an initial smash hit, the next work they produce is typically a yawner (few exceptions so noted).

After releasing his initial smash hit, unChristian – What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity – And Why It Matters: David Kinnaman honestly performs the unimaginable….he crafts a follow-up You Lost Me: Why Young Christians Are Leaving Church and Rethinking Faith that’s at least as fine as his initial release. NO KIDDING!

In unChristian, Kinnaman states: “We can’t change what we are known for unless we change how we live.” (p. 231). The thesis in You Lost Me is basically summed up in the following:

“We are at a critical point in the life of the North American church; the Christian community must rethink our efforts to make disciples. Many of the assumptions on which we have built our work with young people are rooted in modern, mechanistic , and mass production paradigms. Some (though not all) ministries have taken cues from the assembly line, doing everything possible to streamline the manufacture of shiny new Jesus-followers, fresh from the factory floor. But disciples cannot be mass produced. Disciples are handmade – one relationship at a time.” (pp.12-13).

Based upon an avalanche of significant research, Kinnaman observes on page 15, “As a faith community we need a whole new mind (emphasis is mine) to see that the way we develop young people’s faith – the way we have been teaching them to engage the world as disciples of Christ—is inadequate for the issues concerns and sensibilities of the world we ask them to change for God.”

WOW! Read the excerpt in the paragraph above AGAIN….This is Earth shaking stuff…this is an 8.0 on the established religious landscape Richter Scale. Kinnaman’s book reveals that a wholesale readjustment – if not outright reinvention of the way disciples of Jesus Christ are formed in North America! Holy religious industry tsunami Batman!

Yet the fault lines that Kinnaman uncovers effect a far broader population than simply those who inhabit the terra-firma above the chasms – they require a wholesale relocation from each and every generation who claim the name of Christ….no matter how comfortably you might find your current abode. Translation: You cannot avoid the essential change by simply moving to some higher, moral or spiritual ground. No, the essential changes Kinnaman defines are going to require courage to ask new, bold and challenging questions regarding discipleship, youth ministry and gauging ongoing, authentic spiritual transformation in Christ. They are going to threaten the foundations of established programs, power structures, processes – as well as the people who currently have a vested interest in “maintaining things just the way they are.”

This is NOT a book that simply focuses on what I refer to as “the ship-wrecked” – the obvious deficiencies that inhabit Christian leadership, relationship, apprenticeship, fellowship, eldership etc. No,  this book is focused solidly on the quality of Christian craftmanship – the ability to form disciples of Jesus – whose beliefs and behaviors are deep, enduring, and transformational throughout the lifetime of the disciple – and the positive, biblical impact they are capable of imparting to others and the world around them.

This book is about  ownership – owning up to the fact that our workmanship  on behalf of the God we claim to worship – is in need of evaluation and change. It’s going to require that Christendom re-read the instruction manual, examine long-held assumptions, assess resources, delivery systems – and personnel. As Kinnaman says, it’s going to require a “whole new mind” regarding discipleship. Translation: Change is desperately needed at this time.

The veracity of the facts laid out in You Lost Me are unassailable. The changes outlined by Kinnaman are informed and should provide the basis for essential reparations to an apparatus whose output of “more of the same” does not honor the God we worship.

It took a lot of guts and angst to write this book. It’s going to take the same to implement the reality that its prophetic message requires.

Take ownership – for the sacred quality of the craftsmanship of those we have the privilege to be a part of forming – with the God we claim to worship.

Your first step is to BUY THIS BOOK!

Click image above to ENLARGE. Image created by Bill Dahl – All Rights Reserved 2011.

Watch David and some young people talk about the book here on YouTube:

Here are the interview questions I have posed to David Kinnaman, President of The Barna Group, regarding his new book, You Lost Me…Why Young Christians Are Leaving Church….And Rethinking Faith (BakerBooks – October 2011).

If you have questions you’d like David to respond to, please send them to me.

This is a book that moves the earth beneath your feet, rewires the arteries in your heart, and causes one to reconsider what you think you know about discipleship.

David Kinnaman is President of the Barna Group – unequivocally the ongoing source of reliable social research about Christians, Christianity and the Church. David has designed and analyzed a wide range of projects for a variety of churches, parachurch organizations and for-profit clients. As a spokesperson for the firm’s research, he is frequently quoted in major media outlets. He also speaks and writes about new models of church experience, the profile of young leaders, and generational changes. In 2007, Kinnaman released his first book, unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity…and Why It Matters.

Below are the interview questions I  posed to David. His responses are in red.

David:

I devoured the book and ranked it #3 in my BEST Books of 2011.  Here are a few questions that arose.In my opinion, this is a terribly important book….frightfully important. Thus, I have taken ample care and time in considering the weave of the context for the questions I have posed below. I hope you enjoy my inquiry approach and the opportunity I have provided for you to respond.

Here we go:

 1. Question: How are you and your family doing?

We are doing well. Everyone is excited about the holidays. My wife and kids are serious elves: decorating, baking, ornamenting, lighting things. My mom keeps calling from Arizona trying to find out what day we will arrive. I love December. It’s my wedding anniversary and my birthday…. And, oh yeah, Christmas. Thanks for asking.

 2. Context: Allow me to construct the context for my question — Rick Warren has written: “God wants you to be in regular, close fellowship with other believers so you can develop the skill of loving. Love cannot be learned in isolation. You have to be around people – irritating, imperfect, frustrating people.” He states that we learn three things through fellowship: a. Life without love is really worthless b) Love lasts forever (leaves a legacy) c) We will be evaluated on our love — It is not enough just to say relationships are important; we must prove it by investing time in them. Words alone are worthless. Relationships take time and effort, and the best way to spell love is “T-I-M-E.”(The Purpose Driven Life pp. 124-127). Question: In terms of the research that is the basis for “You Lost Me…Why Young Christians Are Leaving Church…And Rethinking Faith” – can you illuminate a few parallels between the above from Pastor Warren and what your research reveals as laid out in your book?

I think this is a perceptive question. Our research leads me to conclude that many of us try to shortcut our way to building a faith legacy with the next generation. But it really does require more of a commitment to give of ourselves to the teens and young people around us. Most of the young adults we interviewed said they did not have a trusted adult friend at their church while they were growing up. In other words, in many cases we do not take the time to really become friends with young people.  

And youth ministers, even at their best, should not put be expected to befriend all the students that come through youth group. It is not a youth pastor’s job to become “friends” with everyone. It has to be a churchwide, intergenerational commitment to make friendships with young people — really loving them — a priority.

3.      Context: In his book, A Whole New Mind – Moving From The Information Age to the Conceptual Age, (2005 – Riverhead/Penguin USA), author Daniel H. Pink writes: “The last few decades have belonged to a certain kind of person with a certain kind of mind — computer programmers who could crank code, lawyers who could craft contracts, MBA’s who could crunch numbers. But the keys to the kingdom are changing hands. The future belongs to a very different kind of person with a very different kind of mind — creators and empathizers, pattern recognizers and meaning makers. These people — artists, inventors, designers, storytellers, caregivers, consolers, big picture thinkers — will now reap society’s richest rewards and share it’s greatest joys.” Question: You write on page 15, “As a faith community we need a whole new mind (emphasis is mine) to see that the way we develop young people’s faith – the way we have been teaching them to engage the world as disciples of Christ—is inadequate for the issues concerns and sensibilities of the world we ask them to change for God.” In Romans Chapter 12:1-2, Paul exhorts the church to “be transformed by the renewal of your mind.” — What is the parallel between your use of the term “a whole new mind” and the same phrase used by Daniel Pink and the Apostle Paul – as it relates to the “dropout” problem your book so comprehensively reveals?

Again, great question! Daniel Pink’s book was a big inspiration to me. This shift from right-brain to left-brain thinking is descriptive of the growing gap between the generations. Today’s younger Christians are not just sort of different than previous generations. They are very different, and the shift to right-brained aptitudes — things you mention above — are very much part of younger adults’ profile. In fact, the church is losing many of the kinds of people Pink identifies. Look at the list again — the kinds of people Pink says will reap society’s rewards. These are also the kinds of people struggling with their experience of Christianity. That’s a recipe for disaster, to have the culture shapers most disillusioned by the Christian faith.

Then, you raised the question of scriptural connections. One of the key biblical references for me was Isaiah 43:19 (Behold, I am about to do a brand-new thing… do you not perceive it?). Also, Jesus’ description of new wineskins relates to the subject at hand. God is always doing “new” things. But we are more comfortable in our ruts. And the next generation is paying the price for our lack of inspired thinking.

 4.  Context: You state the following in your book: “We are at a critical point in the life of the North American church; the Christian community must rethink our efforts to make disciples. Many of the assumptions on which we have built our work with young people are rooted in the modern, mechanistic and mass-production paradigms. Some (though not all) ministries have taken cues from the assembly line, doing everything possible to streamline the manufacture of shiny new Jesus-followers, fresh from the factory floor. But disciples cannot be mass produced. Disciples are handmade, one relationship at a time.” (pp.12-13). In his book, Out of Our Minds – Learning To Be Creative,” Sir Ken Robinson writes: “We all live our lives guided by ideas to which we are devoted but which may no longer be true or relevant. We are hypnotized or enthralled by them. To move forward we have to shake free of them.” (p. 7). Question: What are several “ideas” identified through your research that “disciple-making” must “shake free of” or unlearn – to reverse the dropout trend?

We need to unlearn the idea that the more people who attend our group, the more disciples we are making. We need to caution ourselves in the most strident possible way that our Twitter and Facebook following is not a discipleship headcount.

Think of it this way: we know that parents of young children and prospective college students seek classrooms with favorable student-to-teacher ratios. No one chooses classrooms that have more students. We generally desire the most intimate of instructional settings. But we somehow have bought into the notion that the bigger our ministries, the more people we are making an impact on.

 That’s just not the model Jesus used. I think we need to relearn mentoring, and better yet, rethink apprenticeship. We desperately need to find new models of mentoring and apprenticeship in order to properly develop the faith of today’s youth and young adults. In fact, we need this kind of intimacy in our faith development more than ever, regardless of our age.

5. Context: You write: “When the Christian faith is no longer autopilot for the broader culture, Christians who are comfortably in two worlds can orient the Christian community toward faithfulness in a new setting.” (p.86). For more clarification for readers of this interview, you are drawing a parallel between what you define as “current day exiles” with a close study of how God has used “exiles” in the Bible. In Author Steven Johnson’s work, Where Good Ideas Come From – The Natural History of Innovation, (Riverhead Books/The Penguin Group 2010), he states: we are often better served by connecting ideas than we are by protecting them. Like the free market itself, the case for restricting the flow of innovation has long been buttressed by appeals to the “natural “ order of things. But the truth is, when one looks at innovation in nature and in culture, environments that build walls around good ideas tend to be less innovative in the long run than more open-ended environments. Good ideas may not want to be free, but they do want to connect, fuse, recombine. They want to reinvent themselves by crossing conceptual borders. They want to complete each other as much as they want to compete.” P.22 (emphasis is mine). Question: How might communities of believers begin to “tear down the walls” that suffocate many good ideas, particularly those who can be identified as “exiles” – Christians who are comfortably in two worlds can orient the Christian community toward faithfulness in a new setting.”

The world is flat, as Thomas Friedman has persuasively written. And this is not more true than with the next generation. Their media (largely the Internet and video gaming) is bidirectional and interactive. The expect to participate and to dialogue. They want to mix it up. The globe feels like it’s shrinking and more accessible to them. Most churches and faith communities are not comfortable with this new participatory future.

This is part of the reason why there is such suspicion toward authority. They have come to expect more give and take. We can be threatened by this and shut down. Or we can see the tremendous opportunity for the Gospel. I think the generation must be confronted with the false hope of their narcissism. But they can also find the Christian community willing to engage them with truth and dialogue and participation. Jesus trusted his Church to a messed-up bunch of men and women after just three years of participatory ministry. That’s more trust than we typically show toward the next generation of leaders and influencers.

6. Context: In their book, “Surveying The Religious Landscape – Trends in U.S. Beliefs,” George Gallup Jr. and D. Michael Lindsay wrote: “Spirituality in America may be three thousand miles wide, but it  remains only three inches deep” (1999 – Morehouse Publishing). You write in You Lost Me in  2011 regarding young adults: “The Christianity they believe is an inch deep….Thus, the Christianity some churches pass on is a mile wide. Put the two together and you get a generation of young believers whose faith is an inch deep and a mile wide — too shallow to survive and too broad to make a difference”(pp.114-115). Which is followed by your thesis that “the Christian church in the U.S. has a shallow faith problem” — and – “we have a shallow faith problem among all adults” (p.120 – emphasis is yours). Question: As a leader of a community of believers, where does one start with addressing this, seemingly enduring “depth” issue?

That is such a challenging question. I think we need to first appreciate the rich faith legacy we have in this country. The fact that more than 7 out of 10 Americans call themselves a Christian is a remarkable fact and a reason for hope. Most of us want to think of ourselves as believers!

Of course, our faith leaves much to be desired. And I guess it comes down to two simple insights we might learn from Jesus: (1) being willing to tell the culture the truth (you wicked and perverse generation), but (2) working out the spiritual depth problem in your own life first. I think part of the reason we struggle is that we are so busy worrying about other churches, other Christians that we fail to keep growing ourselves. Matthew 6:33 says we should, ourselves, seek first the kingdom.

I wonder if we spent more time pursuing the Father ourselves — and modeling that for the next generation — if we wouldn’t be better off. I have a deep faith today, such as it is, because of what I saw modeled in my parents and grandparents lives. Not because they spent so much time worrying about the problems in the world.

One more thought on this: I hope our research and writing (like in unChristian and You Lost Me) helps point people to addressing gaps in their own life first, before it causes them to hand-wring about everyone else’s problems. Research is strange that way, because it can be abused when it simply creates this overwhelming sense of hopelessness.

The shallow faith problem in America is daunting. But it’s not really our problem to solve. It’s God’s. We can only work out our own feeble faith with fear and trembling.

7. Context: Dr. Billy Graham has written: “numbers by themselves are never a true indication of what God accomplishes.” (Just As I am – The Autobiography of Billy Graham pp.133-134 1997 HarperSanFrancisco & Zondervan). You suggest in You Lost Me, “What if, instead of measuring our success by the numbers we changed our metrics…that the hallmark of mature Christianity is a willingness to invest in a young person for a period of two to four years, teaching him or her the fine art of following Christ” (p.128). Question: In terms of the “depth issue” referred to in question # 6 above, how do we go about “measuring” whether one is “qualified” to invest in the mentoring of a young person? What might “qualified” look like? Might one look for “qualified personnel” amongst those “outside” an established church community?

Lots of stuff here and a whole book could be written on this. Of course, I think the idea of measurement is important. And I agree with Billy Graham. I would say it this way: we have to be careful not to measure what is important to man and miss what is important to God.

I find it interesting that what is important to God is very difficult to measure: a broken and contrite heart. But these are not impossible to find. I think we should be searching for teachability, eager pliability to learn and grow, willingness to apologize, people who are able to think about themselves in the third person, through the power of the Holy Spirit. We should be looking for these characteristics in both mentors and their apprentices. Jesus was the Son of God, yet he had this readiness to learn from his father.

I guess this means the most important leadership quality is pliable, ready, willing souls.

8. Question: What tools are currently readily available to measure “spiritual growth and transformation” in young adults (or adults for that matter), that you might be aware of?

The best tool should come from our own clarity about what we are trying to create in young people. We need to first start with the hard work of being very clear and concrete in what we think counts before God. And then we should develop some process to “notice” those things in the lives of young adults.

 You might think of creating five questions before and after a sermon series that measure the key outcomes – both knowledge and attitudes. Then use the same questions at the end of the sermon series to see if your teaching had any effect.

9. Context: a central thesis of You Lost Me is every story matters. This thesis assumes several things a) somebody cares b) somebody is willing to listen c) there is a huge “relational” component to capturing the essence of this opportunity. You also suggest moving away from “experts” to another mode of relationship development within the Christian community. Question: What might that look like?

I think that the Christian community does care about the lives of individuals. That’s what got most pastors into this line of work. Most of the influencers in ministry (paid or volunteer) want to see transformation in the lives of people.

The relational opportunity is huge, but it is the hard part. I think we have the interest, just not always the capacity to love people the way we should. Part of the key to this might be the next generation. They are highly relational. They want to get out there and engage the world. They want to be involved and invested in the lives of others. I think helping them to understand the relational opportunity and to become God’s listeners and healers is a huge way that God could use young adults in his Church today.

10. Context: I stumbled onto a guy named John Medina and his book entitled Brain Rules – 12 Principles for Surviving and Thriving at Work, Home and School. John is a developmental molecular biologist and research consultant (I have no clue what that actually means other than he’s a lot smarter than I am). He’s also an affiliate Professor of Bioengineering at the University of Washington School of Medicine. In his spare time, (the guy doesn’t really have any does he?), John is the Director of the Brain Center for Applied Learning Research at Seattle Pacific University. (Makes my brain ache just thinking about all of the above). Medina writes: “Researchers have shown that some regions of the adult brain stay as malleable as a baby’s brain, so we can grow new connections, strengthen existing connections, and even create new neurons, allowing all of us to be lifelong learners” (p.271). In You Lost Me, you suggest, the media perpetuates “the damaging misperception that older people do not have much of value to offer the younger generations, thereby increasing generational fragmentation in our cultural imagination” (emphasis is mine – p. 118). Question: How might we invigorate the truth of “lifelong learning” as a biblical principle that might serve to accelerate diminishing the destructive nature of this deception, within Christian communities?

The church is the one place on earth where the generations come together without any ulterior motives. Really, this is the picture of the Body of Christ — not just our giftedness, but our intergenerational potential.

Being intergenerational is hard work. It takes intentionality. Being a good basketball player helps if you’re tall and can jump, but it also takes will power and practice. The book includes a lot of practical intergenerational examples. But it takes leaders prioritizing the interdependence of generations and making it happen in their ministries. It’s not easy. But it certainly can be done through human intention and God’s blessing.

David, I realize this book was incredibly difficult to write. The reality of biblical truth spoken so boldly – and its implications – typically cause us to question what we think we know – and how we behave – both as individuals, organizations and social institutions. We would like to thank you for your display of courage…and pray…that minds, hearts and behavior shall be changed – for His glory.

Thank you!

Bill Dahl